Virgin Birth

For what it’s worth, I’ve never been able to swallow the concept of the “virgin birth” of Jesus. It just doesn’t make sense… I know, I know… “It’s a miracle, Matty. You just have to accept it.” Well, I can’t… I don’t… I won’t… fortunately, GOD doesn’t require us to adhere to a particular set of dogma or doctrines in order to be called HIS! There are a couple things I can’t believe that are the norm in Evangelical Christian circles… and this is one of them.

All that being said, I came across the following website today… maybe you want to check it out… maybe you don’t… http://www.wallsofjericho.info/

SDG,
Matty

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14 Responses

  1. It may help to look at the Virgin birth under a different perspective. For example, if Jesus is fully God and fully human, then he needs a fully Divine parent and and hence the immaculate conception. The virgin birth exists not because sex is bad, but simply to show us who Jesus’ father was. The whole point is that i was a miracle because it was the birth fo a unique figure, who was distinguished in all ways.

  2. gebs,

    Thanks for the comment… I never said sex was bad, by the way… Jesus was a human being. He was indwelt by GOD the FATHER in the person of THE HOLY SPIRIT at his baptism by John the Evangelist… I don’t believe that Jesus was “fully God” as an infant or a toddler or child or a teenager… that would have been ridiculous…

    Also, most major religions attribute some type of immaculate conception to their leaders… in fact, the Buddha was said to have stepped, full-grown, from a Lotus flower (i think that’s what i learned).

    Isn’t it great that we don’t have to ascribe to a specific set of beliefs in order to be a Christian!!

    Cheers!

    SDG,
    Matty

  3. Don’t quote me on this but I seem to remember my friend telling me that she learned in her OT class in college that the original text does not say “virgin” but rather “young”.

  4. Andi –

    the website I cited in my original post says just that, the Hebrew word used both by Matthew in his gospel and by Isaiah is usually translated “young”.

    SDG,
    Matty

  5. Matty –

    A couple thoughts on this. First, I don’t know much Hebrew, so I can’t tell you what the word does or does not mean. I do know that some words have different meanings in different contexts. There is nothing to cause surprise at a “young” woman showing up pregnant. There is something special about a virgin. Both texts suggest that this is a special event, not a mundane event.

    Second, check out Luke 1:34. This statement: “And Mary said to the angel, ‘How will this be, since I am a virgin?'” is not a word that means young woman. The word virgin translates a phrase that literally says “I do not know a man.” Luke’s account is specific that Mary was a virgin.

    Because of this explicit statement, I accept it as true. Since I accept the idea of the infallibility of scripture, then I accept Luke’s account as true.

    John
    john-simons.com

  6. John –

    thanks for your comment… not sure what order the gospels were written in… (my New Testament class was sooooooo long ago!) it may be that by the time Luke was writing his Gospel, the myth of “virgin birth” was already prevalent… as no one was present at the conversation b/tween Mary and the Angel, except for Mary and the Angel, Luke’s claim of a direct quote is ludicrous in and of itself…

    as to the “inerrancy or infallibility” of scripture, this is another of my “bones of contention” with modern, Evangelical Christianity…. i believe that, taken as a whole, the bible is GOD’S word in the sense it provides a picture of GOD and outlines the way by which we can come to have a personal relationship with HIM in CHRIST… but, each word/story/myth/song/letter… all written by men, all fallible, all slanted by the author(s) agenda(s)…

    Welcome to the discussion, brother!

    SDG,
    Matty

  7. I, too, have the same question of the infallibility of Scripture for the same reason. I believe it is inspired by God but ultimately it was written by man – who is indeed fallible.

  8. This is such an interesting discussion.

    It is interesting to see that such an important spiritual and faith based issue (the virgin conception) has become a purely exegetical debate. I believe it is more than this, and to try to find “proof” for it in scripture is unproductive to the actual meaning of the belief in the virgin conception.
    Although it seems ridiculous to believe that Jesus was God even as an infant it does not mean that it is impossible. Like the resurrection – that is ridiculous, yet we believe it. In fact everything about the life, death and resurrection of our Saviour is ridiculous. The whole thing is scandalous. For God to become human and be treated the way he was, and still is to some extent. Do you think that Jesus was less divine before he was baptised? He was divine before the world ever existed, but INSISTED to be baptised by John, who himself recognised that he did not have to baptise Jesus of Nazareth. He recognised Him before baptism.
    I believe God is fully human and fully divine. His father in all respects was God.
    Thanks for allowing me to be part of the debate.

    Geb.

  9. Matty –

    I have a lot of thoughts on this and would love to dialog with you. Are you interested in discussing this further?

    Even if you don’t want to pursue this too far, I think it would good for you to spend some time studying the issue and praying about this. Your view on Scripture affects how you view everything else.

    Scripture was inspired by God, and was indeed written by men. I agree that men are fallible, however I also believe that the inspiration of Scripture is such that God protected His written revelation from error.

    John

  10. Geb –

    you’re so much more than welcome to comment on any part of my blog and on any post or discussion going on (i choose not to use the word “debate”)

    as a point of clarification, i don’t think it’s ridiculous to believe Jesus was fully Divine as an infant… i think it would be ridiculous for HIM to have been fully divine as an infant…. a fully self-aware, completely functioning GOD existing in the person of an infant, able to walk/talk from birth… it’s not miraculous (like the resurrection or even in incarnation, itself)… it’s silly…

    thanks for walking with us!

    SDG,
    Matty

  11. John,

    Thanks so much for your offer of dialog. The truth is, I love to discuss and debate, but I’m not sure what purpose it would serve. I am not likely to have my mind changed and neither are you. I am not now a scriptural literalist… I used to be… maybe I will be again, someday, but at this point, GOD has not convicted me that my life or my relationship with HIM is compromised in this matter… I believe that GOD in the persons of THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT is fully and accurately revealed in the Scriptures… I believe the TRUTH of salvation by GRACE through FAITH in CHRIST is fully and accurately communicated in the Scriptures… I don’t believe that a Man named Noah really built a huge boat and put 1000’s of animals on it and then, after all other life on earth was destroyed, repopulated the entire planet through incest… it’s a myth… a story intended to convey a TRUTH… a very real TRUTH of the faithfulness of GOD… but not history…

    I love you, John, for being a sharpening stone in my life… iron to my iron… Blessings on you and your family! Praise GOD for the miracle of the internet!

    SDG,
    Matty

  12. Matt –

    Fair enough. As you know I also love to discuss this kind of stuff. For me the primary purpose is to explore the issue, and help us both think about it. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I am sure that we will have other topics to discuss down the road.

    Hasta,
    John

  13. But if he wasn’t fully God right from the get go, wouldn’t he have a sin nature?

  14. nonamouse-

    Welcome to the discussion! Some thoughts to consider with your question:

    Do you believe in an “age of accountability” before which children are “innocent”, or do infants who die, go to hell?

    Does being “fully GOD” mean JESUS was “unable to sin” or “able NOT to sin”? How does that compare to you and me and to a “sin nature”.

    Is it possible JESUS was not “fully GOD” as an infant/child/teen but perhaps “mostly GOD”?

    I don’t have a good answer for you, nonamouse, but, again, welcome to the discussion and I look forward to hearing more from you…

    SDG,
    Matty

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